This post is a transcript for this one, which has the video.
Kelsie
Hello, I’m Kelsie, I’m The Occuplaytional Therapist, and I’m here with Mr. The Occuplaytional Therapist.
Josh
You can call me Josh if you want.
Kelsie
You can, but he prefers that you call him Mr. The Occuplaytional Therapist.
Josh
Is that the intro you want to go with?
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
Okay.
Kelsie
Yep.
Josh
All right, this is like, take five,
Kelsie
I keep it authentic on this page. It’s important to me. So we thought that there were some things that we could talk about better as a parenting dyad than just me writing about them by myself. And we thought that conversational would probably work better than, than trying to co-write something together. So we’re giving this a try. Talking about, we have a five year old and a three year old, I call them Apollo and Summer on this page; you have experience working with kids, though not in an OT context; but kind of a span of experience from young kids to, to like teenage age. You want to talk a little about that?
Josh
Yeah, so I have spent most of my life as a gymnastics instructor. I was teaching kids when I was a kid, and kind of grew up with that, and taught through high school, college, the first 10 years after college. I taught gymnastics primarily to anywhere ages three to 15-16, and then was also a youth pastor of high school students. So I have my professional expertise sort of lies in a different side of the developmental…
Kelsie
Yeah, definitely trending toward older and if not necessarily…older and/or more capable of like, following, like, structured
Josh
Very structured, very structured.
Kelsie
Yeah, I tend toward the more younger side of things and/or the kids who are like, having a lot of trouble with structure or routine and something because they’re, you know, they’re in school and they’re struggling…
Josh
Yeah, most of the kids that you deal with in your work would not thrive in my area…
Kelsie
Yeah, exactly. They would not have done well in, in gymnastics or in like, structured sports or things like that. And we come from different parenting backgrounds, like, as our own self, as kids. And while the, like, stereotype is that like the, the man or the person socialized as male in, in a partnership, or a co-parenting–
Josh
[interrupting] Breadwinner!
Kelsie
Yeah, yeah, co parenting partnership is usually the–
Josh
Win the bread!
Kelsie
The breadwinner, the, like, stricter one with the kids, and all those kinds of things. But right now, I’m the one who’s, who’s the working parent.
Josh
Winning the bread.
Kelsie
I’m the one who’s the working parent, and you’re the one who’s the stay at home parent right now.
Josh
Mmhm. Yes.
Kelsie
Although I have been in the past, it has been the opposite in the past, but it was when our kids were babies. And also, I come from a household of a little bit more control.
Josh
Yeah.
Kelsie
And you come from a parenting style…
Josh
More lasseiz-faire.
Kelsie
That was yeah, like, not not necessarily permissive parenting but close to the line there.
Josh
Yeah, I wouldn’t say permissive, but yeah, laissez faire.
Kelsie
Yeah. Laid back.
Josh
Laid back, laid back. “Yeah, he ain’t getting into problems, he ain’t getting in trouble…”
Kelsie
Yeah, part of that was because you were a really laid back child.
Josh
True. Yes.
Kelsie
But I was also a really laid back child…
Josh
But that, yeah, so we similar…
Kelsie
Or maybe not a laid back child. Um, I feel like my mom would watch this and be like, “Are you kidding me?” But I was very eager to please child, and a naturally compliant child.
Josh
Yes.
Kelsie
But that didn’t affect the…because I was the oldest so my parents were still, felt like they needed to be…
Josh
We both had similar personalities as, as kids, but different parenting styles.
Kelsie
The adults around reacted to it pretty differently…
Josh
Even though we were pretty similar.
Kelsie
Yeah, both pretty chill. Again, not chill, but… compliant. I was not chill, I was super not chill.
Josh
I’ve seen the home videos.
Kelsie
How do you feel like the way you were parented influences you as a parent?
Josh
Well, it’s always there because that’s what you know. Right? So you’re either working toward it or you’re working…
Kelsie
…to not.
Josh
To not.
Kelsie
You either want to emulate…
Josh
Yeah, you either think… it’s, it may not even always be conscious. Because I think people either they do what they know, or it was such a bad experience…
Kelsie
That they just don’t want to do that…
Josh
They don’t want to do that. They may not know what to do, but they just know this is not what I want. And so I think that the influence is definitely there. I think for a lot of, for me personally, I don’t feel like a lot of that is conscious to where I think, “I am trying to be like my parents” or “I am trying to not be like my parents now.” There are, there are times where that is the case.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
And probably more in the in the in the frame of, “This is a way I don’t want to be like my parents.” And that’s not even necessarily, like, that’s not a bad thing…
Kelsie
I think it may be an easier thing to think. Because if you are just like, this is a good way that adults interact with kids, you might not necessarily attribute it to, “This is a good way my dad did this with me,” but you’re just like, “Oh yeah, this is the good way to be in the world.” But then if you’re like, “I remember when my parents did x, and it really, you know, really hurt me when they did that,” then you’re like, more likely to like, connect it with a person.
Josh
And it’s like, not necessarily even like, things that are wrong. Or it’s just like, these are things that don’t fit my children.
Kelsie
Right,
Josh
Because you parent different kids differently.
Kelsie
That is very true. And our children are very different than either of us were as children.
Josh
You know, so and I think that as grandparents, my parents try to grandparent the way they parented.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
And there are some elements of that, where I’m like, that doesn’t work for my kids as well as it did for me. Or even just like, that’s not a value that I want, necessarily to be as prominent as, as my parents may have made it. And to give a specific so people aren’t just like, “Oh, what was it…?” Just like, I think, really, my mom loves to give gifts. There are two boxes on their way right now, like somewhere as we speak, because she messaged me the other day and told me that she was sending me two boxes. And like Christmas was like, if the living room wasn’t full of wrapping paper at the end, like, you could barely see the tree level of things. And we’re more like, “Here’s like three presents and one of them’s a book.”
Kelsie
We just have like a more of a minimalist like, which is also a little bit practical, because your parents lived in one place that they wanted to live for their whole life…
Josh
Their whole life, yeah.
Kelsie
And we want like, we’re, we’ve been kind of nomadic in our, in our life. And so like, even just from a pragmatic standpoint, our thinking about like, toys and stuff isn’t, like, we want to have tons of them. We want to keep them for our grandchildren. But your parents like, genuinely did, they did keep the stuff that was your stuff for their grandchildren. So it wasn’t like, they’re, it’s not just like, “Oh, they’re excessive, and we’re better…”
Josh
The value is different, because the context is different.
Kelsie
And so so you have those like conscious things in your mind where you’re like, “Oh, I’m gonna do that differently when I’m, when I’m parenting.”
Josh
Yeah. But, and then, then just just so we’re talking about the positives too, the number one thing where I think like, specifically, I know that I was like, “Hey, I want to be like my parents in this,” is like, you tell your kids when you got it wrong.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
And you just say, “Hey, I messed up…”
Kelsie
That’s important.
Josh
You know, “Forgive me.”
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
You know, I can think of a couple of different times in my childhood, like, specific instances in which my parents said, “Hey, I screwed up. Will you forgive me?”
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
And like, that’s a…
Kelsie
It’s powerful to a kid.
Josh
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it makes you realize, because you, I think, as a kid, you just kind of have this thing like, “Oh, your parents don’t…”
Kelsie
They don’t, like, yeah, it’s, well, it’s not like a… That’s a real thing that shows that respect is going both ways.
Josh
Right. Right. It’s not, it’s not that as a kid… You’re not like, “Oh, my parents don’t ever do anything wrong.”
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
Because even like, as a kid, you would, might… Oh, they yell at you, and you’re like…
Kelsie
You might think they did, yeah, yeah. You feel wrong about it, but it’s…
Josh
But it’s, “it’s okay for parents to do that, but not for kids.” And this really shows that you’re like, “hey, you know, this was, I could have handled that better.”
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
And, you know, I, or, like, “I did not put you in a position to succeed.”
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
“And that’s something that, you know, we need to do better…”
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
…next time and understand that it’s a, as a parent, you’re, you’re not always gonna get it right, but you’re just gonna do the best you can.
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
And learn from times you have that you didn’t get it right.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
That’s something that I’ve tried to really inculcate in my own parenting.
I, I have more things in my, from my childhood experience that I… maybe it’s easier for me to come up with things that I don’t want to carry over into the way that I am parenting.
Yeah.
Kelsie
But I didn’t know that when we started parenting, I didn’t. I kind of really thought that I wanted to be exactly like my parents, like I really hadn’t had any time to come to terms with disagreeing with anything that they did or thinking that there was a different way that I would do things. I really felt like when our, before our kids were born, I really felt like my parents were pretty much the A+ model of parenting and your parents were way too chill. And do you–did you do something to change me? Because you saw that I was gonna be like, too controlling or like, too…
I don’t think so…
…because, because a lot of people a lot of
Josh
A lot of people are in that situation, yeah.
Kelsie
Well, it’s part of the gender thing here being kind of backwards with us. And a funny, like, aspect of that is that another part of the gender thing is that the vast majority of people who read this page are women. And a lot of them have a husband who they wish would be gentler or more respectful or more mindful. Or they, or they feel caught, maybe even, because they’re like… they want to be respectful of their husband, they can see where he’s coming from, they obviously don’t want to like, be choosing the kids over the husband. And it’s not always a wife and a husband in that direction. Obviously, it’s not with us, but, but that is a common thing, in, like, comments and people talking to me and stuff. That they want to know how to, like, disagree with their spouse, or like, how to like, give them some suggestions on how to be gentler, or how to, like tell them child development things because their parent– the other parent may not even have, like, reasonable expectations of what the kid can do. Do you feel like there was ever a time where you had to, like, try to like, intervene? Or, you know, like, try to tell me something? Or do you feel like I just kind of found out that myself.
Josh
We were married for five years before we had kids?
Kelsie
Something like that.
Josh
Roughly?
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
So there was time, I think, for us to develop our own thinking as a couple independently of, of our family structures. Hypothetically, if it were like theoretical, because we didn’t have kids yet. But it wasn’t like it as if it immediately went into having to do child-rearing…
Kelsie
And having to copy kind of what you knew.
Josh
So I don’t, I think that there had been enough time. You know, obviously, you were going to school at the time, when, when we adopted Apollo. That was, as you were graduating?
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
With your occupational therapy degree. So I think you had changed some by then, simply because you had…
Kelsie
Like a tiny little bit of child development [being taught at school] but there wasn’t a lot, really, just because my, my degree was not very pediatrics heavy.
Josh
True. Yeah.
Kelsie
And so I got more from I have a psychology undergrad degree, and I did more child development in psych. But that was a lot focused on abnormal development and things like that. But I actually really changed most of it when I, when he was about four or five months old. And I found the concept of respectful parenting in online groups and started like reading daily. And that’s what really shaped my thinking over time. But there have still, so I don’t, I think that the answer to that is probably that there wasn’t like some big…
Josh
There wasn’t a big thing. I think there was a commitment to, to like, we’re parenting together. And we’re going to, we’re going to agree, but we’re going to, we might, we may agree within a spectrum.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
Of, you know, not “this is the one way to do things”…
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
But here’s a range,
Kelsie
No, we still have things currently…
Josh
…of what is appropriate, yeah…
Kelsie
…that, that are on a, where you’re in one spot on a kind of acceptable spectrum, and then I’m in a different spot. And sometimes I’ll– stop it!
Josh
You’re just thinking of dinner. [laughing]
Kelsie
Well, a little bit. [laughing] And, and if I, so that, that… despite the fact that there hasn’t ever been some big conversation where we had to be like, “Hey, I need to intervene on behalf of like, my kids’s safety or whatever.” Like, we’ve never really had–had a spot like that. We do have places where we, where we just differ. Like I feel like disagree is even too big of a word, but where we just differ. And sometimes we have had conversations about those, where they’re too confrontational. And like, if like, I’m trying to talk to you in the middle of one of us being triggered by what the kids are doing. That’s not the right time for, like, us to be, like, trying to like, tell the other one to do it a different way.
Josh
Yeah.
Kelsie
But it’s been more successful. When I, like, say….I’m like describing what you do with a kid. So like, I feel like silly saying it, but like, in a calm and connected time, then I come to you at a separate time. And I say, “Hey, can we talk about…” and I usually don’t even be like, like, “Can we talk about earlier when the kid was screaming?”, but I’m like, “Hey, in general, it feels like dinner has been a little bit of a struggle lately,” or, “The kids riding in the stroller has been a little bit of a struggle lately. Is there a different way that we want to do that?” Or like, “Do you want to think of some ideas of how we could do that better, you know, so that both of us aren’t getting, like, escalated by it?”
Josh
Yeah, yeah. That’s the… very rarely is the time to find out how you want to parent…
Kelsie
…in a moment when the kids are freaking out. Yeah,
Josh
Yeah. That’s something that you have to come to and, and you can make those decisions based on different times of life as well, like that, what may be the correct decision is, especially in areas where you’re talking where we just like differ on exacts and might be like a particular context is fine; another particular context requires more structure.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
Or, you know, control. One even differs from child– learning what the needs of that child are. So it’s like there’s not a there’s not a one size fits all or like a certain like, exact answer, like, this is what is appropriate for all kids, at all times, at all ages, at all developmental levels. You know, it’s like what–what works? it’s very utilitarian in that it is about what works at the current moment for your family. And by what works. I don’t just mean like what works for the parents, but then also our family, you know, the family unit?
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
I think in a way that leads to like, growth, and development.
Kelsie
If anybody is having resentment about the situation, I say that’s a sign that you need to do it a different way. Because I really, truly feel like there’s like a bajillion ways to do things. And like societally we know about like, one, or maybe like three, depending on like, what the thing is like: how to have dinner, how to do bedtime, how to whatever you know, like and then you can even get more granular like how to– what clothes you need to wear to bedtime, or like what you know, like super granular things. And there will usually be like, if I said categories like that, you could probably say back the one societally most normal, or like even just stated most normal. “What clothes do you wear to bedtime?” “The pajamas,” that’s the societal one. But then if someone in your family is not having a good time with that, whether that’s the parent or the kid, or the co-parent, you know, like, whoever it is who’s, like, struggling, there’s a million other ways to look at the situation and go, “Okay, wait, what needs are we trying to get met? Is the problem that this is a baby who will pee in the bed if they are wearing no clothes? Is the problem that this is a baby who is a tiny little baby and they need to be swaddled? Is the problem that this is a big kid who’s tired of wearing whatever?” You know, “Is the problem that the kid can’t wake up in enough time to go to school, and can they wear their school clothes?”, like, there’s like, lots of, you know– and you take the one scenario and you, you break it into the other parts. But I think people are used to the concept, or people who read the page might be, might be more used to the concept of how to, kind of do that collaborating with a kid. But sometimes that collaborating with a co-parent can be really hard because the co-parent might be coming with a lot of different feelings about the way that the conversation needs to go or feeling threatened by the suggestion that their idea might be not working or that, that might make it their fault, or the thing–the way that they were raised and how they were parented. And the stories they’re telling themselves about whether this means they’re being respected or disrespected, or defied or whatever.
There, I think, especially there’s a lot of…We’re not big on tradition.
That helps.
Josh
But there are a lot of families, there are a lot of families where it’s like, “This is what we did, this is how we’ll do it. And I will not budge on this.” And the reason for that is because that’s what they know. And that’s what feels comfortable to them. And anything outside of that. Even if even if you’re like, if you’re all here objectively, there’s a much better way. But a lot of people would, would–and this goes beyond child development, you are more comfortable with what you know, even if it’s a problem, as opposed to something that is new. And you know, you don’t know, right? And you could be scared of what might happen, that it could be worse. For some people, it’s, it might feel like admitting that, well, that means that I was raised incorrectly.
Kelsie
Yeah,
Josh
My parents messed up. And that may not be the case…
Kelsie
That was a big thing for me, genuinely. Like to, to have to, like, admit to myself that like my, my parents could have done something different was, was a much bigger thing than I expected.
Josh
And you have to understand that your parents probably acted doing the best they could…
Kelsie
Right yeah, they were like breaking their, the previous cycles. And so like, they were like, they they were a united front, they talked all the time about their parenting strategies. And then the parenting strategies they agreed on were like, way more controlling than what I would think and how I want to parent my own self and so um, and, and so it… I think almost because of how much like, thought and consideration they put into it, and all the parenting books they read, and all the parenting books I read because I was a hyperlexic small child, and like, literally like conversations they had about it with me because I was also like, weirdly mature, and people would like talk to me about stuff… And they’d be like, “Oh, yeah, we make this decision, because that’s what we believe, based on our morals, and those are based on this.” And, you know, and, and so for, for all, if they had been… Like, if they had been, like, parents who were like, chaotic, or obviously not in control of themselves, I think I could have grown up and been like, “They were obviously not in control of themselves. They were overwhelmed. They were this or that.” And instead, I was, you know, for years, I was like, “They knew exactly what they were doing. They made, you know, they made these choices really intentionally. Therefore, they must have been good…”
…choices.” Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s a difficult thing to decide you’re gonna break, but there is no, there is no growth without change.”
Right.
Josh
Like, if you just choose, like, I’m gonna do the exact same thing that my parents did. There’s, even if you, even if, even if you agree,
Kelsie
Even if you choose, I’m not going to do the exact same thing my parents did. But you don’t come up with what you are going to do, then you’re gonna do the thing that when you’re– when you’re escalated, and when you can’t think of what to do, the voice in your head is the loudest voice that, that you grew up with. So when I come up with information, and I, and I, somebody asked, “How do we share parenting information with each other in a non confrontational way?” Or just new information? Not even necessarily, we disagree, but like new information, how do we share it with each other? And I read that and it made me laugh a little bit, because I don’t know if you’ve ever shared one with me. And if I want to share one with you, I like post it on The Occuplaytional Therapist, and then you read it.
Josh
And I read it!
Kelsie
And then maybe you share it to your personal Facebook page, and I’m like, [laughing] “Yes! I taught him a thing! I didn’t have to teach him with my voice!”
Josh
[laughing] I wouldn’t necessarily say that you taught it to me! It is funny to be like… Because I know that you don’t always, like, you’re not like, writing those and immediately pressing “publish”. So I’m like, “Oh, that’s what Kelsie was thinking about a month ago.”
Kelsie
But I can remember times…it’s funny because Apollo had, well, we’ll get to like autism and stuff. Eventually. Apollo is autistic. And, and I remember like, so because of that, then there was some, some extra difficulties with like, learning to use a toilet. But I remember when he was like, one or two, we were like, on a date. And I was like rambling to you about something that I read about potty learning and how like, you, you needed to like, not, like, you know, like, force your kids to toilet at a certain time– that it can actually be more, like, difficult for them to, like, learn, like, interoceptive body cues and, like, all this jargon and stuff. I, like, have this– I can, I don’t know if you remember this memory…
Josh
I don’t remember this at all.
Kelsie
Like I can, I don’t know where we were, I can remember sitting at the restaurant, sitting across from you, and just rambling about toilets for like,
Josh
Excellent, excellent dinner date conversation, by the way.
Kelsie
And it wasn’t even relevant is the thing, because he, like, wasn’t even in the– he wasn’t even the age range where anyone thought he should be using a toilet, let alone you know, even the people who think you could do it the earliest ever. And so then, like, later in our life, when it like became relevant. I was like, “Oh, I introduced this to you before.” Like I got in on the ground floor. I didn’t freak you out when our kid was three. and I was like, “I think he’ll get there. If we just let him listen to his body. I think he’ll get there,” and you weren’t like, “You absolute crazy person. I’ve never heard this before,” because I had secretly…
Josh
…secretly…
Kelsie
…secretly laid the foundation of it at dinner.
Josh
Yeah, that particular thing is probably the one thing that like, I’m always personally annoyed about.
Kelsie
Toileting?
Josh
Toileting.
Kelsie
It’s a tough one.
Josh
I just wish it was easier. But I don’t, there’s no one who’s like, “Man, I really wish my kid would just keep going in the diaper.” Summer, the other day, was at her nursery for the entire day. And the nursery has been…
Kelsie
Yeah, they’ve been struggling.
Josh
Well, that’s, again, like that’s their call. They have asked…
Kelsie
Different rules for different places.
Josh
Different rules for different places.
Kelsie
Kids can learn different rules for different places.
Josh
And they have asked that she wear underpants there, because they’re gonna try to, like, they’re convinced they can do it. And she just doesn’t go to the toilet while she’s there.
She just holds it.
She’ll go to the toilet– she’ll go to the toilet, and by that I mean use the diaper, before she goes. She’s there for five hours, and she’ll use the diaper when, you know, when she gets back before… but you know, she has a great bladder, I think. At least opposed to Apollo.
Kelsie
She’s gonna be thrilled to grow up and watch this.
Josh
And she was going to be there for the entire day because we were going out on a date because it was a, it was a holiday for you, and you were off work. She was gonna be there for all day so I took her in a diaper and packed underpants as well, that way it was their decision as to what to do. And apparently they immediately just put her in the one pair of underpants that I had sent. And then they were like, “She, she had an accident, and we used the backup clothes,” and then on the way home, she had an accident– like she’s not,
Kelsie
It’s not an accident.
Josh
Well, yeah, it’s not. An accident is the term but she’s not… yeah, there wasn’t an accident. And I’m like, “Well, if you want to…? Like, I don’t know, you’re not accomplishing anything. You’re making your life harder as well.” And, and I would, I would push back against it for the nursery if it bothered Summer. Yeah, if it bothered Summer. But she don’t care.
Kelsie
She’s not bothered by it.
Josh
But, but I started this story because–
Kelsie
We would stand up for her if she was.
Josh
Yes, yes, we wouldn’t just like, “No, this is…” Anyway, as we were coming home, and she was like — to herself, not to me, just to herself — she was like, “Underwear does not like pee. Or poop.” I have not told you the story, huh?
Kelsie
Uh-uh. [No]
Josh
“Diapers do like pee. Pee and poop is for diapers. Not for underwear.” Like that. And I was like–
Kelsie
She’s like, putting things together.
Josh
Yeah. And I was like, so I threw out there, and I was like, “What about the toilet?” And she’s like, “No.”
Kelsie
That’s not a surprise. That’s not. I mean, she still says she’s little. She’s a little girl.
Josh
She tells us that.
Kelsie
She tells us that. Different rules for different places is important for people who are co-parenting, but not in the same household.
Josh
Yes, because there are going to be different contexts.
Kelsie
There are going to be different contexts. You can’t– you whether you live in the same house with a co-parent or not. You can’t force them to parent according to your parenting style. If you get to a point where you think that your child is in danger, then you have to, you know, “Yeah, I have to do something about that.” But if you just feel like,
Josh
“Dad lets me run the chainsaw!”
Kelsie
Yeah, great example of the danger that I’m talking about. But if you get to the point where it’s just like, you know, the one parent is stricter with the kids or one parent yells at the kids or one parent… you have to decide for yourself where your line is, between which you are– like before which you’re like, “It’s more important for us to be united,” versus afterwards, you’re like, “It’s more important for me to protect my kids.” There, there is a line of that. There’s not a one size fits all rule to this. But a child doesn’t, like… Every parent, every adult, the– the nursery teachers, the school teachers… Every adult in the kid’s life is not going to have the exact same philosophies about everything. The grandparents, if they are in the in the picture, or you know, like aunts, uncles: people are gonna have different relationships with your kid than you do. And it can be a lot more painful, I think when it’s the co-parent who’s having a different relationship with your kid than you do. Especially if… I think there’s two big reasons. One being that if you’re the respectful or the gentle parent, then you might get a lot of the brunt of the meltdowns and stuff like that, because you’re the safe parent. And two, because it can be really hard if you are having like, really lovely moments with your child. And you’re like having moments of delight with them. And you feel like the co-parent is never getting that because what they are to the child isn’t as safe of a person as you are. And so you feel like, “If I could just make– if I could just make my co-parent, you know, like, be my way toward them, then it would make them have a better relationship.” But, but you can’t, you can’t do that.
Josh
It’s difficult. I can think of– This is more of a sports context than parenting. But where the kids that I taught, would occasionally have part of a class with a different instructor.
Kelsie
Oh, yeah, that’s a good comparison.
Josh
Who was more strict than I would be. You know, and you had to– and I’m dealing with kids who are like 10 to 14, basically. And there, there were some times when they would be like, “Well, you would be okay with this.” And I’m like, “But I wasn’t the one in charge.”
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
And you kind of had to let the kid know, the expectation, like, the expectations can be different. And that can be– that– that’s, you can’t do that for a kid that’s too young.
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
But it is an important skill to develop, as probably a preteen to teenager moving into a life where they’re going to have a multitude of authority figures…
Kelsie
Different, right.
Josh
In different realms. To understand that there are different expectations, different rules, and not to like, you know, that like, “Oh, this person is better than this person,” that– whatever. But just to understand, like, different people have different values for different reasons.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
And that doesn’t necessarily inherently mean they’re better at teaching kids or worse at teaching kids, it just means that the, the thing that they are trying to impart, and the way they do that, is different.
Kelsie
Is different.
Josh
And that you may have to adjust that you like, even if you as the kid are like, “I prefer the way this person,” you know, “This person teaches me” — or “parents me” — you still have to respect…
Kelsie
All the…
Josh
–what the other person is doing. Like you, not, I don’t want to say change your behavior. But you, you understand that, you know, they’re not just trying to be mean to you or anything.
Kelsie
They have a reason for being…
Josh
They have a reason for what they’re doing…
Kelsie
Their values…
Josh
But that’s, that’s kind of older kid development. Even, even adults kind of struggle with that.
Kelsie
It is. And I encounter that with, with people I work with, where like, there are multiple of the same grade of classroom. But I know that, you know, Teacher A — and I think, you know, Teacher, A, B, and C are all within the acceptable spectrum of like, of, you know, of professional teaching relationship with their kid, I’m not concerned about any of them. But I know that one is like, is really, really great at setting boundaries, great for the kids safety, a little bit more detached or like a little bit more impersonal in terms of like, the way that they’re going to be relating to the kids because they’re kind of more focused on like, managing the classroom. And, you know, like, everybody being in the right place the right time. And then there’s a Teacher, Teacher B is kind of in the middle. And then Teacher C is like, very affectionate and very, you know, caring about each of the kids’ emotions, and like, it’s really great to the like, heart of– but then her classroom is like, a lot more disorganized, you know, and so it’s like, there can be parenting and there can be other…
Josh
You keep moving out of the frame.
Kelsie
Sorry, I keep scooting back. Other, you know, authority figure relationships like that that your kids run into throughout their life.
Josh
What that ends up doing is that if your kid has each of those things, they get a well rounded experience.
Kelsie
It’s true.
Josh
Like there’s–
Kelsie
Everybody doesn’t need to be…
Josh
–deficits and strengths to each style. And that’s just how people are. People naturally have different tendencies,
Kelsie
Right,
Josh
To do different, different things, different, different styles. And, you know, so long as none of those are abusive or harmful. You know, there’s, there’s this spectrum of what is appropriate.
Kelsie
Here’s an example from our parenting.
Josh
Okay.
Kelsie
If, if I was putting a kid to bed… which I am the bedtime parent…
Josh
I prefer that.
Kelsie
But if in a, in a, when I’m not here. If I’m on a trip or whatever. If I’m, if I’m putting a kid to bed, and you know, and they’re like, “Don’t go, I miss you. Give me another kiss. Give me another hug. I want one more kiss. I want one more song.”
Josh
Yeah, yeah, I’m a softy.
Kelsie
You’re more likely to be like, “Okay, one more song. Okay, one more kiss. Okay, one more hug.” And I’m more likely to be like, “I know, I love you too. Good night!” Shuts door. And neither of those things are wrong or bad. And our kids are not like — if you ask them, they would probably say they prefer you. They do actively proclaim that all day long and from the rooftops.
Josh
It is true.
Kelsie
Um, but, um, but I’m not threatened by that. I don’t think that they are feeling emotionally abandoned by me. You know, like, I don’t think that they’re truly like, “My mom doesn’t love me,” and even if they were– even when they get older and they can say, “Well, you don’t love me!” you know, like, I know that an unloved kid doesn’t actually feel safe to say that to the person who they’re worried is not loving them. And so, I can, I can honor their emotion that they would like to extend bed time and also I would like to not. And that comes from a lot of things. That comes from, that comes from me knowing my limits and that I’m going to get tapped out real real fast at bedtime. If, if we’re just extending nonsense over and over.
Josh
Yeah, like, like, “You like it now but you will not like it…”
Kelsie
Right? Yeah, exactly. The– “Excuse me, the hugs are going to become very clinical.” And, and so I just– I just don’t, I just opt out of it before I even get to that. And you have a lot more patience than I do. But I, like, I’m doing a good job with… Like me doing a good job *is* me saying, “I know, I love you too. Good night.” And not me dragging it out to the point where I start feeling like the martyr in this situation.
Josh
Right.
Kelsie
That’s not me doing a better job.
Josh
Well, I’m not like…
Kelsie
And I don’t mean that’s what you’re doing. You’re not feeling like that. You’re not feeling the way that I would feel if I was doing it.
Josh
Because there’s still a point– because the the kids aren’t ever like, “I’m satisfied. Goodnight, Father.”
Kelsie
“Sufficient hugs. Goodbye!”
Josh
Yeah, it’s there’s, you know, it’s still more and more and more and more. So there is a point at which I’m, “Yeah, you know, we’re done.” I just I do have a tendency to–
Kelsie
You have a deeper well than I do.
Josh
–to give them a couple more minutes. And that’s fine because it’s different personalities.
Kelsie
It is.
Josh
It’s different.
Kelsie
And they have different relationships with the both of us.
Josh
Yeah.
Kelsie
And Apollo will say like, “I want Dad, I want Dad,” but then if you’re not around, he’s like, totally fine snuggling with me. He’s like, he’ll just never say it.
Josh
Yeah. He loves you.
Kelsie
He does.
Josh
Yeah, so that’s the…
Kelsie
You spend more time with them anyway. Because you are the stay at home dad. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? What’s it like being a stay at home dad?
Josh
Depends on the day.
Kelsie
Yeah?
Josh
Have good days, have bad days. When the staying is at home, and at home was all day?
Kelsie
That’s a long day.
Josh
It’s a long day. It’s a really long day.
Kelsie
It’s true.
Josh
I…
Kelsie
You cannot drive.
Josh
I cannot drive!
Kelsie
Here. You’re capable of driving.
Josh
I think I know how to drive a motor vehicle at this point. It has been a couple years. I worked two jobs for a long time.
Kelsie
Forever and ever and ever.
Josh
And like we’re talking 60 hours a week, and then I moved here and don’t work at all for money. But I used to…
Kelsie
Equal vacuuming.
Josh
I used to take care of like 20 kids over the course of a day. And they would come and go. Now I take care of two and they never go. They’re always there. And it’s…
Kelsie
And if you go away for 15 minutes, and then you come back, they’re like “DAAAAAAD”, like they’ve been abandoned with me.
Josh
It was, it was a transition for me. I think that they’re, they’re at a point now where they, where they– one’s in nursery and one’s in school…
Kelsie
They’re both out of the house sometimes. Yeah.
Josh
And I, I love those breaks.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
I love… currently, the one in nursery is three days a week, and the times are offsetting of the regular school hours. So there are days where I have them one on one.
Kelsie
Right.
Josh
That’s gonna change. We have to figure that out, because they both love that one on one time.
Kelsie
They get like hours of one on one time with Dad.
Josh
And it’s easier. They’re like, raising kids is like, it’s like, exponential. Like one, one…. I don’t want to say raising one kid is easy, because that makes it sound like it’s– Yeah. But raising two kids is, is more than twice as hard as raising one.
Kelsie
Oh, yeah. I don’t think it’s exponential. I’ve heard from people who have more kids–
Josh
Not exponential?
Kelsie
–that it like it tops off at a certain point, because then
Josh
Hmm, okay. Have more kids. That’s what you’re saying.
Kelsie
That’s not what I’m saying. But I, I’m just saying for the– before the people with 18 kids go to the comments and are like, actually, this is approximately as hard as it was with 17. Then I don’t think it’s forever exponential.
Josh
Just the, there’s this sense of that, I think, well, I guess I’ll just approach the dad portion of it.
Kelsie
There is a unique component of that, ’cause you’re kind of left out of…
Josh
A little bit, a little bit. I have, I go to a weekly playgroup with Summer. And it’s all moms and me. And they have accepted me as one of their own. We were having pregnancy conversations last week. And…
Kelsie
Not only do you not have any personal experience…[laughing]
Josh
[laughing] I don’t! I don’t!
Kelsie
You don’t even have any…cause our children are both adopted.
Josh
And I’m just like, “Not only did I not give birth to kids, I don’t…”
Kelsie
“I don’t even know anyone who…Wait, I was born once, does that count?”
Josh
You show up at the hospital and the kid is there, like…yeah.
Kelsie
Yeah, they tell you 24 hours in advance.
Josh
The, it is, it is different. So they’re, you know, at the playground, two of the parents were venting about husbands– I think ex-partners actually — and, and they’re just like, “Ugh, men!” and they’re like, “Except for you! Who’s…”
Kelsie
“Over there!”
Josh
Yeah, “Over there sitting next to me!” Like, I try to be the exception, but– and it is because of patriarchy…
Kelsie
So here’s a, here’s a good question–I don’t mean to interrupt your thought.
Josh
Okay.
Kelsie
But there are a few dads, and there are a few men who aren’t dads, who follow this page–despite being in the significant minority. What would you say to the people– because, because honestly, it’s because of patriarchy and everything, it is–
Josh
You keep going out of focus.
Kelsie
–harder for, or there are fewer men who are like, looking up and saying “Actually, hey, I want to do this parenting in a different way and I want to be a part of this space for it.” So, what would you say?
Josh
Be confident in what you want. What you, like–be the change you want to see in the world. What is culturally, the standard, typically, throughout history, has not been what is best, or what leads to human flourishing. And it is not–we are so much better– If you look at statistics from like the 1950s…
Kelsie
Yeah, absolutely.
Josh
–and the number of hours that, you know, dads spent with their kids.
Kelsie
Or diapers they changed, whatever, whatever, metric.
Josh
Yeah, it was like, nothing whatsoever. So, I do want to point out that, in this, you know, in this millennium, we have come so far over the course of our…
Kelsie
Men are making a big cultural shift–
Josh
–the last, you know, 50 years in how, how men parent. Like it is, it is exponentially better.
Kelsie
Yeah, it’s true. Each generation is shaking off new things.
Josh
Men still don’t, as a whole, are not the primary caregiver– usually. And that is because they’re usually the primary person who is working. And that is usually because men make more money. Men are more likely to be in like job fields, that they can be a sole earner.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
And all of this, all this goes back again to like cultural patriarchy and things that we’re slowly, I think, working our way out from, but are still dealing with. And so if you are the primary caregiver, as a dad, you’re just at the head of the curve. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re not… in a way you are, you are bucking a trend. But really, you’re just at the, at the forefront of where that trend is going. And it’s not emasculating to raise a child.
Kelsie
And then there’s, we have a lot of non traditional families. We have families with one parent, families with two dads, no dads, you know, there’s like all kinds of different… and so anything that’s assuming that it’s going to be one, one mom and one dad. And that’s the only, you know, and it’s going to be this type of structure. And it’s going to be this…
Josh
2.3 children, white picket fence…
Kelsie
Right? Yeah, that’s, that’s completely missing the mark at this point. And so all the different kind of non traditional family structures, I feel like also have– the Venn diagram between non traditional family structures and people who are finding respectful parenting and non traditional parenting styles has probably got a big ol’ overlap. And that’s because I think when you have one non traditional thing, then you’re more likely to have multiple non traditional things. Maybe that’s a reasonable segue into neurodivergence, because I know that that our son has an autism diagnosis–
Josh
He does.
Kelsie
Like formal diagnosis, he was the most obvious, like presentation type of what you think of as stereotypical autism in…what you can tell in a two year old. How was like, what, what was that experience like for you? Because you were– you– I was actively working with Autistic children at the time.
Josh
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelsie
And so like, you hadn’t? Not really. You had like one or two kids every once in a while,
Josh
The diagnosis was not going to change anything. You know?
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
Like it, it gave a name. And it gave some sort of blueprint forward. It gave access to certain resources. But it wasn’t like they went, “You have autism, here are all the autism things.” And then he changed– and then he changed. No, he was who he was. So you know, it’s– I think, I think people often think you have to like, grieve an autism diagnosis.
Kelsie
That’s how they approached it when they told us about it, they were like…
Josh
“We want you to know,”
Kelsie
“Here’s your sad parent support group…”
Josh
“Your son has autism.” I’m like, yeah, we came to you to tell you that.
Kelsie
I had like walked into every appointment being like, hello, my son has autism. We would like a diagnosis so we can get him some help at school and they were like, “Okay, well, we’ll do this and then we’ll refer you to this person,” and then I’d go to the next person and be like, “Hello, I work with kids who have autism. I’m not allowed to diagnose them, but my kid has autism. Hey my kid is Autistic.” I say, I say “has autism” because that’s when I’m talking to medical–
Josh
That’s the way–that’s the way medical providers are going to say it.
Kelsie
Yeah. “I’m getting a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder.” And not just “my kid is Autistic”.
Josh
(whispering) It’s not a disorder.
Kelsie
It’s not. That’s true. And when you talk about–
Josh
That’s a whole ‘nother hour of conversation just on that one, just on that right there.
Kelsie
Yeah, we can’t, we can’t spin off completely. But there is something to be said for the like, there’s Autistic–there’s autism–(stammering noise to restart sentence). There’s Autism Spectrum Disorder. And then there’s like, the Autistic community and identity, which is not necessarily founded in like a DSM definition. And to which both of us identify in different– different amounts, we’ve both kind of, we don’t have the– a lot of parents will have– get a kid with– and the child will get an autism diagnosis, and the parent will go, oh, actually, that reminds me of several things in my childhood.
Josh
Yeah.
Kelsie
And then they’ll, you know, like, reflect, or they might seek diagnosis, or they might just self diagnose. We didn’t– we didn’t have a genetic component to make either of us look at that. But yeah, we both still kind of did for separate reasons. I was actually looking at it with myself before we ever had questions about him, because I remember another conversation at dinner with you, because apparently, I just spring things on you at dinner–
Josh
We have great dinner conversations.
Kelsie
Where I like, had like, either printed out or copy pasted into my phone, like a, like a list of things– because where it was originally was on a website that said like “female autism”, and I didn’t want you to be influenced by the header of the website. So I handed you the list in whatever form it was, and was like, hey, read these. Do they sound like me? Yeah. And I feel like you were like, “I don’t know, they kind of do.” But like, kind of like you were like, iffy? And I was like, “No, they sound exactly like me.” And you were like, “What are we talking about? I thought we were having dinner.”
Josh
So yes, both of us have neurodivergent traits.
Kelsie
Yeah, absolutely. I tend to talk about mine in– because I do talk about mine on the page. And I have people comment on the page and say like, “Oh, you know, are you Autistic? Or, or do you have ADHD? What,” you know, “What kind of neurodivergent are you?” And I haven’t ever publicly said like, “This is the name of it.” But I do talk about traits. So I will say, you know, like, oh, I, uh, I, well, so the one thing that I can like diagnose about myself is I will say I have a statistically significant sensory processing differences, because I’ve done a like, test on them. But um, I will say, you know, like, “Hey, I have struggles with sound. And so I do this”, or I’ll say, “Oh, hey, in order to work on energy regulation with myself, I will do this,” or, “Oh, you know, I, I had this trait when I was a little kid, I was hyperlexic, I cried all the time,” you know, like I’ll, like, name things as traits without talking about what they could conglomerate into. Because I know that I don’t fit the DSM definition. I know that a lot of people don’t, who self-diagnose as Autistic. I know that you don’t fit the DSM definition. But you do spend like hours at home in your office categorizing things on Excel…
Josh
I love Excel.
Kelsie
…your favorite things. And so like both of us, whether or not we– whether or not we we, we don’t want to publicly co-op something that’s not ours. So we’re both kind of just like take these things and say to ourselves, “Oh, well, okay, well, we can understand that, like that, that makes, that makes a lot more sense.” Or like “Ah, we can see where he’s coming from.”
Josh
A non medicalized view of autism is more like, “Hey, this is a social disability,” in that society is not geared…
Kelsie
…towards accepting…
Josh
…toward the acceptance of Autistic people. Does not tend to make the… concessions isn’t really the word I want to use. But it’s, it’s a, it’s a social disability in that society itself does not easily embrace the Autistic mind.
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
It would, it would be as if there were no wheelchair ramps into buildings, which sometimes there’s not. So that’s a different topic–
Kelsie
In Europe. We live in Europe instead of in America.
Josh
All to say that– Yes. So is it is…I, for whatever neurodivergent traits I have, I do not feel disabled in the social sphere by my neurodivergence. So I’m not going to claim autism as a diagnosis for myself because of that.
Kelsie
But some people would say, it’s not only a disability and say I’m definitely Autistic, but I’m not disabled by it.
Josh
And that’s fine. That’s fine.
Kelsie
I feel like people define it for themselves real differently. And there’s just like this whole big ongoing conversation in Autistic circles. And in the internet at large a lot. But also, there’s some groups in in person and stuff. But the internet makes it really easy for communities to find each other and, and so there’s just this ongoing conversation about it that we’re both kind of like, have at least like a foot in or, or a couple feet in, because obviously I do this for my job. So. But we didn’t have all this before we knew about our son. Like we didn’t– this didn’t come first…iffy… but at least it came parallel with. But there wasn’t ever any real… I don’t know, he just was who he was.
Josh
Yeah, you don’t have to be scared about it.
Kelsie
I think a big part of it for us could be because adoption comes with so many unknowns anyway, that we were kind of just like…
Josh
We don’t know…
Kelsie
Because we tried to adopt a baby before Apollo, and that baby had like, significant, like physical, visible disabilities. And so we were going into, we were going into, you know, parenthood, feeling like we were going to be doing it real different from the get go. And then that adoption didn’t end up happening. And then this one turned out to be more of a, of an invisible thing for a while. But then a, I mean, when we got there, it was still just finally like, “Well, this is what it is. He is who he has always been.”
Josh
Like, not not to downplay the challenges of raising an autistic child, but every child is going to have their challenges. And we found the correct label, and path for– “label” may have been a strong word, like,
Kelsie
Name?
Josh
Name, found the correct name, name for it in a way that will help him in society.
Kelsie
Right? Yeah, for him, it, it’s important to have, like tangible supports around him that, that, that that doors get opened when you have a word to put to it. And for him to have a word about himself eventually when he can, when he can talk more about it. Because that’s been another big part of us both kind of exploring these communities as adults too, is being like, “Oh, that’s the same as me.” That I have, I have a word to, to understand. I have a word to like look up to be able to find more information to understand things about this. Well.
Josh
That’s the end of the questions that you had written down.
Kelsie
That’s the end of the questions I had written out, do you have any last wisdom? I spit wisdom on this page all day, every day, just like constantly. So what do you want to share with the world?
Josh
Love your kid. However you parent, whatever you do, reflect on it and think, was that a loving thing? Did that feel like love?
Kelsie
If my kid was going to define love as that…?
Josh
Yes, yes. Did my kid feel loved by it.
Kelsie
And I think when you don’t, then like, there’s room for repair. Because that
Josh
Yeah. Oh, kids are, kids are resilient,
Kelsie
And repair is like an important, like, equally important part of the process, because they’re gonna screw things up too, and so you want them to have that model.
Josh
There are times where I have messed up. And there are times where I have raised my voice to my kids. Because whatever the reason–yeah, not, can’t condone it. So, and like, “That was too loud.” And they’ll cry. And they’ll come sit in my lap and want a hug. And like, that’s the both sides of it is that they felt… They, you know,
Kelsie
They could tell you.
Josh
Yeah, they felt they could tell me. And they came to me for comfort after that.
Kelsie
And you apologized.
Josh
And that’s really the sense of like, you know, if you for me, that tells me that like there’s grace for me as a parent when I mess up. For my kid, my kid, my kid is going to give me that grace. They don’t have the language to call that grace or the, the ability to know what that is. But they’re…their innate feeling when they are hurt, even if it’s by their parent, is to go to their parent. And that means that the love is…
Kelsie
An undercurrent there that they can trust and fall back on.
Josh
And undercurrent that’s always outweighing the momentary… whatever it is that I do and I, and that goes back to the thing of forgiveness. I can say I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I should not have been loud. And that also then models
Kelsie
How to apologize…
Josh
How to apologize for them, because you’re not always gonna get it right.
Kelsie
I’m giggling because I’m thinking of the time that I, that I screamed at him and, and he’s standing there eating Cheetos out of a bowl. He’s like, “Hey, Mom, you screaming?” All right. I feel like no one took what I wanted from this. And now I feel silly. It’s fine. I deserve to feel silly.
Josh
Yeah, just love your kid. And don’t…don’t be too, don’t be too serious. Like, it’s,
Kelsie
We’re both pretty goofy. That is a big part of our parenting.
Josh
Yeah, don’t you don’t have to be… You don’t have to get it right all the time. You can always try to do better the next time. You always do, what is the next best thing.
Kelsie
And I think– not to tag on too much at the end here. But I think that a, a, having the grace for your co-parent is a big part of it. And especially if you are the respectful one, and they haven’t come as far in the journey yet. That can be real hard to keep taking on. But if you can find a way with them to be like, “Hey, if I like, tap you on the back, and I’m like, ‘Hey, do you want me to step in for a sec?’ I’m not saying that because I’m like, ‘You terrible parent, yelling at my kid, get out of the room so I can save the day.'” And you can’t come to it with that attitude either. But if you can like truly look at the co-parent with empathy and be like, “Hey, why don’t you like take a sec?” Like, “It’s okay, I got this, why don’t you take a sec,” and let– and you’re both having empathy for your kid because the kid maybe doesn’t deserve whatever is going on. But you’re also having empathy for the co-parent who you know is stressed. And if the two of you can talk about that at a time, again, when you’re not actively stressed, so that you can tell them that what you’re communicating isn’t intended to be, “I hate your parenting, you’re doing a bad job, stop it.” But truly, “I know what it’s like to be overwhelmed. And right now I’m not. Let me take this for a minute so that you can go get not overwhelmed, and then we can all be okay,” you know, then then I think that that makes a big difference. But you have to not just be seeing it as a it’s, it’s it’s me versus them. It’s a collaboration.
Josh
I’ll make this the last thing that I’d say because we’re at an hour…
Kelsie
Yeah, I know, we talk a lot. We could talk forever.
Josh
Would you treat an adult…
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
the way that you treat your kid?
Kelsie
Wow. What an idea. Someone should say that on their website.
Josh
Now, obviously, like, if an adult did some of the things that your kids did, you might. You might. But you know, just think of the respect of “this is a human being”.
Kelsie
It’s a good shorthand. It’s not like you can swap that in one one to one, but it is a good shorthand for like, “Well, what would I do if an adult was telling me this?” Or what–or if you can abstract out exactly what they’re doing and, and analogize it to a thing an adult does, that helps too.
Josh
Or if I, if this, if someone treated me like this as an adult?
Kelsie
Yeah.
Josh
Would I like it?
Kelsie
Right. If my boss did this, if my if my spouse did this? Yeah.
Josh
Well, you didn’t write a closing statement. So good luck winging that.
Kelsie
Oh, well. Oh, no. Now you’ve put me on the spot and I’ve forgotten all the words I know. That’s okay. They all, they all know that I can’t close. I just like, write an essay, and then I’m like, “And that’s the end. Image description.” So thank you for, uh…
Josh
Image description: two people.
Kelsie
Two people. Super cute, like the cutest ever. One of them with cute, multicolored hair…
Josh
A lot of color, and another one with absolutely none.
Kelsie
Absolutely, exactly that. One of them with maximum color, and the other one looks like a ninja, crossed with the Duck Dynasty man. But thank you for listening to the rambles that we have to say. If you have questions or comments or things that you want to talk to us about in the comments, maybe– maybe both of us can, can give some answers. Because he does actually have admin privileges to The Occuplaytional Therapist page, although it’s all me so far, but maybe I’ll let him answer something. If so, yeah. If you got a question for Mr. The Occuplaytional Therapist, go ahead and ask it. We’ll see if there’s uh, there’s anything else we have to say. But thank you for listening for so much of our rambles and see you next time!
